with Obiora Udechukwu

By C. Krydz Ikwuemesi

Krydz:  Tell me about your development as an artist briefly.

Obiora: That is a big question. I don’t really know where to start. Ehm... I had the opportunity of studying with Joseph Eze at Central School Onitsha. At secondary school, I started with Roland Ndefo. Then after, I met Uche Okeke who was there at the Mbari Centre in Enugu and Uzo Ndubuisi who was living with him at that point in time. Through all of them I got introduced into the Mbari publications and the works of other modern Nigerian artists including Odita, Osadebe and so on. Of course before then, I had met Olu Byron who was then in charge of graphics at the  Ministry of Information.

              Uche Okeke was very important because I then decided to major in painting even before I went into art school. I went to Zaria and spent a year; because of the pogrom in the north, I transferred to Nsukka. And I have been at Nsukka since that time. Of course I have met many artists from different parts of the world and all these encounters have contributed one way or the other to my development as an artist. The effect of Uli painting and drawing is something I am sure you are familiar with.

Krydz:  You resigned from Nsukka in 1997, although you are now on leave of absence and not retirement, from the same school, why did you leave Nsukka?

Obiora:  To start with, I did not resign, what happened was that given the circumstances of 1997, I decided to take voluntary retirement from Nsukka. But when the conditions at Nsukka changed, a number of colleagues and friends thought that it was not necessary to cut the link with Nsukka. So, I now asked for leave of absence without pay; which is my status as at now. So I am on leave.

Krydz: How soon do you hope to return physically? Don’t you think that your absence from a place or an institution to whose growth you have contributed so immensely has created a gap, a very big gap?

Obiora: It hasn’t created a gap. I believe strongly in the Igbo principle of ‘ukuta azu’, which was part of the problem I had with Gomwalk’s expulsion of young artists. In the Igbo system, a man grows up and he brings up his children so that when he dies, there will be people who take over and maintain a link. My thinking at that point in time was that people like Krydz Ikwuemesi, Chika Okeke, and so on, who were coming into the system would take over from us when we retire.

                        Now, for  somebody to come and sack them means that the person has no sense of history, he is not thinking about the future. I said as much in writing to Gomwalk. So now that things have been resolved up to a certain point, I think that even if I decided to leave now, I’ve paid my dues. I have been at Nsukka since 1973. And from 1977 I had taught full time until 1997. Twenty years. So if people like Krydz Ikwuemesi, Chijioke Onuora and a few others are there, I don’t think there is a gap. And I mean it.

Krydz: You don’t think that your physical presence is needed for a little while, considering  the circumstances in which you went on leave?

Obiora: Let’s look at it. Take some of the members of staff at Nsukka. Someone like Chike Aniakor has studied in the U.S. for his masters and Ph.D He was away for many years. Benjo Igwilo trained for first and second degrees abroad, at least a minimum of six years. Anatsui trained in Ghana before coming here. C.S. Okeke also trained abroad. And quite a few others. I have never lived abroad. So I don’t think that my staying outside the country for a couple of years is a problem. Let me just see what I can do from there for a while.

Krydz: Some critics have mooted that the Nsukka school is now on exile, with you, Chika Okeke and Oluchukwu Oguibe, and some others out of the local scene at the moment. Do you agree with that view?

Obiora: I don’t. I don’t know who ... which critic you are refering to? I think that’s an over statement. Nsukka school is made up of many people. Chike Aniakor is at Nsukka. How can somebody say that we are on exile. Krydz Ikwuemesi is there, El Anatsui is there. I don’t see ... It’s just an overstatement.

Krydz: Coming back to Nsukka, once more, how do you feel now, when you look back at the Gomwalk era, with all its whirl wind and all that? I saw one your poems or more alluding to that disaster. Personally, I don’t think artists have really addressed that era adequately in their  work. What do you think?

Obiora: Well, I mean, it depends on each artist, what he wants to do with the material. I have produced a couple of ...

Krydz: I mean those of us who were involved in the situation.

Obiora: You mean here?

Krydz: Yes. Here and outside.

Obiora: Well, that is what I am saying. It depends on what each person wants to do with it. I have produced a couple of works not just writings but some paintings which refer to those years. There is a series I call “Dark Days” which is a paraphrase of Kwame Nkrumah’s book - ‘Dark Days in Ghana.’ I mean, for me it was like the dark ages. Luckily for us that period has passed. I think we should just try and put it away. If we discuss Gomwalk too much, then we are giving him too much credit. It is an intellectual and cultural throw-back. So he’s had his stay and I think we should just forget him and proceed.

Krydz: But I think he should have received due attention like other issues in the society. For instance, when I was studying for my MFA at the University of Nigeria, I wanted to do a mural as part of the requirements and I had done a sketch, which I called the ‘Trial of UNN’,  there was this lion being attacked by a vulture. And some people sensing the message behind it refused to have it done.

Obiora: Why?

Krydz: I don’t know, but I think  we shouldn’t doctor history or try to  whitewash some parts. I don’t feel good about ...

Obiora: I think it is wrong for anybody to do that. Anybody who does that, if he is an artist or academic should be called to question. If what you are doing is libellous and then if you want to proceed maybe they should get you to sign a declaration that the university should not be held responsib when the time comes. And then you can sign that declaration.  But short of that, I don’t think it is right and proper at this time in history for anybody to begin to censure the kind of painting or work that an artist is producing. I think it is unfortunate. Well, I don’t know who your supervisor was. I mean, if I was there, I don’t think I will have any problem with a work like that, as long as the work is solid. I would be looking more at the quality of the work more than the content.

Krydz: It wasn’t necessarily the problem of the supervisor. But I think some other feathers would have been ruffled. Infact ....

Obiora: How did they know about the painting?

Krydz: Well, I ended up not painting in the department because of some power politics then and of course I had to change to a more “positive” theme.

Obiora: You remember that the Rockifella commissioned Diego Rivella to point a mural and of course he put a head of Lenin there in Manhattan. You can imagine that, in the centre of Capitalism, putting the head of Lenin. So they removed the mural. So my position is that they should have allowed  you to put up the mural, then if the university thought that it wasn’t proper; then you should remove it. That would make interesting controversy for the Nigerian press and public and that would also help to promote art. That is the way I look at it when you generate that kind of controversy, then people’s attention will be drawn to what people are doing, and there will be debate from both sides. I believe we should always talk,which is something which I think is now lacking in the university. People should talk. University is a place where you should air your view. If somebody doesn’t like it, he then provides an alternative view.

Krydz: As a way of generating ideas.

Obiora: That is why it is a university. Just like parliament. You  probably know the famous case of Frank Ellah, Senator Frank Ellah resigned from the senate. He was moving a motion on the floor of the senate and Waya, who was Senate President, ruled him out of order and he resigned. He said that the meaning of parliament is ‘talking house’. So if you cannot talk on the floor of senate,then it is no longer a senate. For instance anything you say on the floor of senate, you cannot be taken to court, as long as it is within the floor of the senate. If you go outside and say it, you can now be sued. So if the university is like that, if you cannot exchange ideas and argue, then it is no longer a university.

Krydz: What are you doing in the U.S. now?

Obiora: Well, the simple teaching. Except that this time I am teaching American kids. And it is a completely new experience, quite different from what we have here. The other thing of course is that the system is working. So that the calendar is fixed. If you’re going to start the first semester on a certain date, the exam will be finishing on a certain date, the result will be given on a certain date. That is, just clockwork.

                        Of course, all the materials are there, everything is available, everybody has access to computer, the e-mail; so it is a completely different environment. I teach studio art but I also take  a course in contemporary Nigeria art, which is art history. And I do occasional lectures in other departments like English. I do poetry workshop and talk about Nigerian and African literature. And I give lectures in History departments. I did one lecture in physics on Igbo calendar. And since my coming, the students have really benefitted a lot. And that is partly why I existed beyond a year. After my first year, the university was  keen on my staying on a bit longer, because I was imparting something new to the students.

Krydz: During your experience with the students, in the area of contemporary Nigerian art, how would you assess the acceptance of the so-called contemporary African art in the United States, given the fact that the traditional has been so much accepted over a long period of time and you know, with some people talking about their own experience when they exhibit outside. People coming to argue more or less, that this could have been done by an American artist or European; that such works being exhibited are not models of what they know as African art. What would you (say) is the acceptance like now?

Obiora: Your question is a bit broad in the sense that you are probably asking me to comment on a wider American environment, art scene and also within the academy. But I think I will like to restrict myself to the academy.

            What I do in contemporary Nigerian art is to start with the heritage, the Nigerian Heritage. Which means looking at Nok, going on to Igbo Ukwu, then to Ife, then Benin and then looking at Uli and then textiles and things like that just to provide a broad back cloth of the of the heritage. And what I am doing here, I am saying, is that this is what Nigeria has as a heritage and of course Nigeria is made up of over 200 peoples or nations. So we are dealing with a multicutural situation. And then, I am saying that people are reacting to this heritage, also reacting to the encounter with the West. And of course they are reminded that the West borrowed from Africa to create modern art.

                        So at the end of the day, I am saying that there is no one way. And that within the Igbo culture, we have a concept of ‘aka weta, aka weta,  onu eju’. So it’s a culture of inclusion not of exclusion. There is a whole range of things happening. There are people who are producing potraits. There are people producing very realistic works and the sculptures. There are others who are producing installations and things like that. They are all okay. So you cannot say that this is not African. Infact, ocassionaly, you hear that ..., I show the work of Aina Onabolu and then a student says to me “Oh, but this looks like Western art.” I say precisely that is what I am saying. Look at Ife, 12th century, already producing realistic sculpture. How can you say this is Western? We have a tradition of naturalism in Nigeria. And then suddenly it occurs to the student that it’s true. He’s never thought at this thing. History says that potraits are European, so once you produce them you are not an African artist. But there is a whole range from which the African can borrow.

Krydz: How has the environment over there affected your work and vision both as an artist and a  person?

Obiora: Well as a person, I think it has not been easy for me to adjust. I have never lived  abroad as I said. And Canton where I live is very cold, very close to Canada. And winter is not easy, sub-zero temperature. So that is one problem which I am trying to adjust to. During winter, once it is 5 O’clock, it is dark like night and my body begins to respond that way. Like chicken when it is evening, it wants to go to bed. So I cannot fit in easily. The other problem is that living outside Nigeria, I feel removed from the activities in Nigeria, and for somebody who’s lived here for many years and is used to buying the weekend papers, keeping in touch with all the activities, suddenly you find out you cannot even keep up with the information. Though I access some of the information on the Interet, it is not the same as living in Nigeria. So there is a sense of loss.

Krydz: How has the socio-political environment affected your work, in terms of philosophy, content and so on?

Obiora: I have not thought about that. I will probably take a while, because many of the things I am doing are things which I have had in my system, projects which I have not been able to realise. I mean, if you take the concept of installation and so on, you remember that even while I was in Nigeria, I was already doing something like that. I did something in Germany in 1995, in form of a house.

Krydz: The Altars ...

Obiora: Yes. The Altars of Culture. And I did something in 1998 at Dartmond College, in the context of a conference. A house that was a shrine, that is House of Truth. I was assisted by Chika Okeke and then four students at Dartmond College. Again trying to bring in the principle of Uli wall painting where several women were participating in the same work and at the end of it you begin to wonder whether you can put somebody’s name on the work. So, I am doing things like that and I will be starting a course soon on installation and performance for the students, just to give them an idea.

Krydz: So, in effect you’re saying that in spite of being removed from your cultural environment, you are still bound to it ... spiritually?

Obiora: There is no way I can cut myself from it.

Krydz: And it keeps running into your work?

Obiora: Somebody like Uzo Egeonu, he lived  more than fifty years in London. If you met him, his works still showed that he had links with Africa and he spoke Igbo, even though he left Nigeria as a teenager.

Krydz: Talking about Uzo Egeonu, I read something recently by Everlyn Nicodemus where she was contending that Olu Oguibe was wrong in stating that Egeonu was influeneced by Uli. She couldn’t understand why an influenece by a European artist, cubist artist, should be ascribed to Uli. She was saying that Egeonu’s influence did not come from Uli, that it was from some European artist. How do you look at that in relation to what you just said?

Obiora: It goes back to the whole issue of detective criticism. How much can you really detect in terms of borrowing and of course you may recall something I said some years ago about John who was a lecturer in music at Nsukka. I designed a cover for Nsukka studies in African literature (NSAL) which was being published. Of course this man did not know about Uli. So when he saw the design, he said “John Miro”, the Spannish painter; This is coming from his background, that’s the nearest link. He sees the work as something that looks like John Miro’s work. That is legitimate. But I told him well that is not Miro, that’s Uli. So I don’t know the basis for Everlyn Nicodemus...

Krydz: You designed the ...

Obiora: I designed the book cover for this journal but the British lecturer in Music, I showed him the design and his immediate reaction was oh, Miro. He had never encountered Uli. So I now had to tell him it is Uli which is why also somebody comes up and tells you that Kandinski painted the first abstarct pictures. That is in the history books. He painted the first abstract picture. But women have been painting abstract pictures for millennia, for centuries in the Igbo area. So it depends on where you are coming from. So if Oguibe sees Uli in Egeonu’s work, I think it is legitimate. If Nicodemus sees another artist’s influence, it is legitimate. Which is exactly what a work of art should do. Once you create a work of art, it is open to a lot of interpretations. And those interpretations make the work grow beyond the regional.

Krydz: Given your Uli background, do you think the American environment will affect your philosophy ultimately or remove from what you had before you went there?

Obiora: I don’t see how ... whatever I am getting elsewhere is like a superstructure. It is something that is added to what I already have.

Krydz: To the original ...

Obiora: The foundation is and I said it in public, I said it in Washington D.C. at the ... exhibition. I am an Igbo person, so my work would purely have something Igbo. But there are some influences. I travel around the world. I meet other people, I experience other things. So if I see something that is good, I can borrow it, consciously or unconsciously.

Krydz: So you don’t agree with such views as Oguibe’s or Anatsui’s or some other people I have spoken to recently, who say there is a need to kill the ‘African artist’ that is ‘African’ in quotes; that they would rather be artists as you said. For me, I think there is a little bit of anonymity that goes with it when you just want to be seen as an artist, without your root or origin being mentioned because I think you can’t even severe it from the work no matter how much you want to be seen as an “artist”. Those things that make you who you are will still linger in the work.                                                 

Obiora:I have not read the statement by Anatsui. So I can’t know the context in which he is saying this. I think the problem is that people feel other artists are referred to as “artist.” But once an African comes they start to have African art. And that is understandable, because you are showing the work in their own environment in the West. If you are showing a work here in Nigeria, you don’t say this is a Nigerian artist, African artist. They know you are a Nigerian artist. But if a British artist comes here to show, the press will describe him as a British artist. I mean they can’t say he is an artist. An artist from Italy is showing as the Museum in Enugu. An artist from Japan is showing at Didi Museum. A curator from japan. So these categories are there. I think that people feel more or less that we are being pidgeon-holed. And I understand this reaction. But if you now begin to say you are not African, you’re an artist. I don’t know what the art history books are going to do because they are divided into sections. You have British art, you have museums, you have the Whitney Museum of American Art,the National Museum of African art also in Washington D.C. These categories are going to be there. We have the British Museum of Man. Not world museum. They have works from Egypt, from all over the world, from Asia, but it is called British Museum.

Krydz: Tell me a bit about the power politics of race as it affects the practice and economics of art. By economics, I am talking about the international market on which most of us have come to rely. Especially down here in Africa to be able to deseminate art.

Obiora: The question is not clear to me. What do you mean by politics of race?

Krydz: For somebody who is in America for instance, you are not from there. The museums and galleries, how positively disposed are they to exhibiting people who are not from there? And you know the desemination of art depends so much on finance, no matter how much we want to look away from it. How easy is it for somebody who is not from there to get access to some of those things, money, space, and other things?

Obiora: I think we should start by looking at their own artists. How many people have access to the prestigious places? How many of their own people have access to these spaces, to those grants and fellowships and so on. So it is very difficult to get these things. There is a lot of struggle within their own people. And you coming from outside, well, it is going to be difficult to break into the system which is where what you talked about finance comes in. Part of the problem, and I think Simon Ottenberg, mentioned this in one of his articles in African Arts, is the relatively weak economic and political status or position of Africa. That is where the problem is. Why are we so concerned about Suzan Vogel’s exhibition? Because there is a fat catalogue? She had a lot of money to put up this exhibition. If we had that kind of money here and we put up the exhibition here and we can produce that book then why are we concerned about what she’s done with her exhibition and who she has included in her exhibition? We all want to be part of the big exhibition and biennales abroad. If we had our own big biennales here, then people should be struggling to get into those. Americans are struggling to get into the Whitney Biennale, before any other thing. That is the one there. Once you hit it, you’ve made it. Not that people won’t want to go out because other people are going, but that pressure, almost a kind of desperate urge to be part of everything outside won’t be there. And that’s what I am saying. It is in our interest also as artists to begin to think about how these things can change, so that we can do things from within our country.

Krydz: Given what you have just said about doing things for ourselves and by ourselves, from inside, I mean inside Africa, how do you think we could go about that? I am not saying you should give us a literal guide. But how do we begin to turn the tide around for Africa in terms of art? How do we begin to create the same situations that we have outside? As I have always said we can propagate and disseminate African art on own terms.

Obiora: The most important thing at this point is for us to create a body of knowleable curators who can package exhibitions. And these curators should be in a position to write proposals; present to bodies within and outside Africa. There is a lot of money floating around in Nigeria: the oil companies, the banks and so on. I don’t know how much we’ve been able to get out of them. I know that Bruce Onobrapkeya had at one time got some money from Shell for the book he did. He was doing it himself, then Shell came and asked to take it over and they paid for it. Bruce is one of the few artists who has over the years been able to produce substantial illustrated books of his own works. There is nothing about Enwonwu. Bruce, anybody can do research on him. So, I think we need to create this body of curators.

                        This is where I go back to what I keep saying each time I am in the company of art historians. All these Ph.Ds; I have nothing against PhD, But it says you have been trained in art history. What are you doing with it, beyond teaching? So the art historians should sit down and write proposals and move out of their offices, go into the field. There are young artists who are active and producing works. But quite often you find that it is a question of  “These small boys that we taught, how can we start interviewing him?” You understand what I mean?

                        But Ulli Beier would leave his place and come to your studio and interview you and produce monographs. But our people have not done that.  People should get out of their offices and move around. People don’t throw money at people, you go and ask for the money. And luckily you’ve been involved in it. You run around with your own money, your own time, pursuing them. They give you a promise. You go, the man has travelled and you know he has an appointment with you. He travels suddenly, he is a business man. What do you do? You have to go back maybe after five weeks you get that money and you’re able to do the thing...

                        And the second thing is to be interested in politics. We should try and see if we can get in touch with those who are in parliament, who are in government, to cultivate them, lobby them, so that they can begin to see the sense in using art as a means of polishing the image of the country. That way, they can make money available from government as well or even through contractors. If somebody is getting contracts from government, you can “twist his arms.” You say “my friend, we are giving you this contract; you are making a lot of money. We have these young people who want to do a biennale, we need a couple of money. What can you provide?” This is not kickback because it is not going to the minister or whoeve.‘Or, “there is a biennale abroad, and we need to send three people, we don’t have the money in our budget. We’ve spent the budget for this arts, what can you do?” “Okay, I’ll provide three tickets and some other person can provide funds for accommodation for them and so on. And some other person can provide money for fames.”

                        The money is floating there but nobody has organised to collect this money. I think that is what we need to do. And I am talking directly to people who have been trained in art history. Much of the work is being done by people who are essentially studio artists. Running around, producing all these things. I think the art historians should get off their bottoms, get off their seats and start producing results.

Krydz: I think I agree with you to a large extent, especially as it concerns taking an initiative. But then you mentioned the curators. Ordinarily some people have said or tried to see some kind of dictatorship in the work of the curator. You know, somebody coming out and saying, this is what it should be. This is what I want the artist to do. Yes it could be true. But then, we also have a second problem here in Africa, or let me say in Nigeria, where I am used to. People are not very amenable to criticism. You have to praise all the time, and I mean if you are curating an exhibition for instance, what we are doing presently, the PACA  show, I remember some people coming back to me and saying but who and who sat in the selection committee to select?” They would have felt better if it were this and that person, probably because such persons have enougb grey hairs.  There was also the other experience where you call people to discourse their work under the theme of “myth making” -  “sculpture as myth making,” and somebody stands up and says, “Oh, you mean that what I have been doing for the past twenty years is myth?” He sees myth as something unreal and frivolous.

                        So I think we have a very big problem to tackle before we get anywhere, because people will not even appreciate the need for what the curator would do, or what is expected of the artist. Or maybe we should say the problem goes back to the universities, where the artists are being trained. There is so much interest in money. Getting to the final stage of production of art which is the economics of it, instead of looking at the process. Those other stages that should be involved before you get to the stage where a work of art exchanges hands for money are not addressed. I think we are lacking in so many things.

Obiora: Well, we are growing. I think that the question of criticism is universal. In the sense that there are artists who don’t like to be criticised and there are others who would accept criticism. And I think the important thing is that if you recognise that the curator has a vision, because he is also creative. A curator is somebody who has a grasp of what he wants to present as an exhibition. So if you fall within that vision, then your work will be shown. If you don’t fall within, then you’re out. And there isn’t only one exhibition. It is not like once this show is over, that is it. There are several other things. So if you don’t like what is going on, then you can start your own. Look at art history. The impressionists started because they were rejected at the French salon. They started their own  “salon of the refused.’ And today they are established artists.

                        That is the way it functions. Sometimes people make too much noise about who is included in an exhibition and who is not. It is legitimate to talk about it anyway. I have no problem with that. But people should realise that you cannot put everybody into one exhibition. So if you feel that things are not working very well, organise something, show an alternative. Show us those people who you think should have been there, who should represent Nigeria or Ghana or whatever. Then after a while, people will say this man has a case. The works of these people are quite good. They should be in the mainstream. So I think that is the kind of thing people should be looking at. The important thing is that things should be happening all the time. The very bad thing is when nothing is happening. Let there be controversy. You can’t escape it. Even in the West, it is there. Every year they give the Nobel Prize, there will be a lot of arguments. Why is it this person and not the other person?

Krydz: Finally, what are your visions for the future? Your projects. What do you want to do in the next few years, professionally?

Obiora: Well, I don’t know ... well, I hope I still have time to create works of art. There are a number of projects in the works. I have a couple of invitations, so I hope, I will be able to produce something for those ones. And then, I intend to keep doing my own little studio work. Unfortunately, we don’t have time. The teaching takes so much out of you. There are other things which I would very much want to do. But the time is not just there. The area of Igbo oral literature and so on. I came back in July, drove -- you know, my mother died and I wanted to pick a minstrel -- so I drove to Aguleri to look for Ekegbalu Anyanwu, a very good friend of mine and only to be told he had died the year before. So these are heritage that are going and we are not recording these things. On video, on audio tapes and so on. These are the areas we need to pry more attention to. And there are people who are trained in those areas. They are just sitting in their offices playing politics. They are not going to the field. They tell you there is no research money. You can see your little fund, go there and talk with these people -- just your tape recorder and a couple of batteries. And you can transcribe. So you don’t need thousands of naira to do that. You need the will and the recognition that the work is important.

Krydz: Are you saying you eventually will be taking on some of these things you have mentioned?

Obiora: If I had my way, I wouldn’t even be in America. If I had the funds to be able to do some of these things I’ll just stay here and be doing this kind of work. Recording and transcribing and making it available to the public. Because many of them have died. The ones we recorded in 1983 in Aguleri, we spent about eleven days. At least four of them have died. The epic poets. They died.

                        And that is part of the problem with the West. Somebody tells you, oh, Africans don’t have epics. Then when you show that Africans have epics; they turn around and tell you that the epics exist only in monarchical systems where they have kings. But the Igbo people who don’t have kings have several epics. At least in Aguleri, you have up to fifteen  different epics. Now if you don’t have that kind of research, somebody tells you that in London, and you walk away and accept it, it is most unfortunate. Somebody starts installation and claims it is something that the west is bringing. It is not true, we have had installation, we had performance, all these things were here. But Michael Jackson starts dancing, you look at him and you are reminded of the drug sellers of the 1970s and 80s, those Ajasco dancers. Jackson’s steps are just a re-packaged version of it.